Best OSR System

[The1True]

Yes, the rest of the party must be out of the picture, but they are there. There must be a magic-user among them, one who cast feeblemind on the Pit FIend. That's the only explanation for why the Pit Fiend (Genius intelligence) is sitting there, with wings and all, instead of flying up there and smacking that bitch out of his choke point.

I DO want to be pedantic here, but there is no Pit Fiend in that picture. There is an Ice Devil (down), a Bone Devil (40 hp), a pair of Barbed Devils (36 hp, one wounded) and a Horned Devil (27 hp) who I believe you are confusing for a Pit Fiend. VS a let's say 12 th lvl Paladin with what, comfortably 70-80 hp and a -2 AC? My assessment of the situation would definitely be different if there WAS a Pit Fiend in that illustration, but there isn't.

I'm not attacking your baby @squeen . I <3 AD&D. Have nothing but great memories of it. Still have all my books. It is possible for you to say that you like to play AD&D with just the core white-book classes without coming up with derogatory terms or disparaging the choices of other gamers who might otherwise agree with you on many of your points. I mean unless you enjoy these pile-ons/circle-kickings you seem to gleefully draw down on yourself?...

 

[The1True]

Awww...you're no fun anymore.

I'm sorry Kevin Neilan. I bought you choklits...

 

[The1True]

I mean really. Who didn't look at that Paladin picture as a kid and think "That's what I want to do when I grow up."? I'm still looking for an affordable hard-copy of that adventure.
Candy classes.
sheesh

 

[squeen]

The minutia is actually quite important sometimes and leads to a very different game.

I am afraid I have to strongly disagree on this --- the differences are not game changers IMO. I think that's the urban myth which has been overblown.

 

[squeen]

Alas, I don't think the reborn elves are allowed to leave Valinor. They're stuck there until the end of time.

I am not Tolkien expert by far, but I think some of the elves were allowed to leave the Hall of Mandos. Glorfindel comes to mind. He was originally killed fighting the Lord of the Balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin, but then reappears in the Fellowship of the Ring. (Although it's possible Tolkien just re-used the name...dunno for sure.)

 

[squeen]

Full and field plate are what is commonly thought of now as plate armor. Plate mail is a reference to armor from the intermediate period between mail and plate, when it was essentially chainmail with plates strapped on top of it (i.e. plate over mail). This is why it is so bulky and slow compared to articulated plate armor. You can see the difference clearly from the image of plate mail in the DM's Adventure Log:

I read somewhere that full-plate was jousting armor (i.e. to keep you safe for public tournaments). Perhaps it was impractical during an actual ground war. It's something I've been meaning to look into.

 

[squeen]

It is possible for you to say that you like to play AD&D with just the core white-book classes without coming up with derogatory terms or disparaging the choices of other gamers who might otherwise agree with you on many of your points. I mean unless you enjoy these pile-ons/circle-kickings you seem to gleefully draw down on yourself?...

Go back and read the thread. My language is playful and mild. If you are taking offense because someone holds a differing opinion about what is good and bad stylistically---then it's on you. I have no authority over you or the game. Despite my never trying to tell you personally how to play, this is the second time you have tried to alter my communications to suit your tastes. Honestly, if you think I'm off-base, then just write me off as a wack-o. I am fine with being labeled a fringe-thinker. When a mob tries to silence you, it can be for one of several reasons---not all of them are because you are being verbally violent or rude. Sometimes its okay to gently tug against the thinking of the status quo (although it's seldom appreciated).

To be clear, I try to make the case for things I believe are good, but also "out of fashion". I champion causes/ideas that I see as both worthy and unpopular. The popular causes have enough supporters already. For example: I started harping on "The Greater D&D" a.k.a. the long-campaign until I saw others like James M. at Grognardia pick up the banner. As that idea grew in the mainstream, I am now reluctant to add any more fuel to it's fire for fear that it gets distorted through disproportionate attention. I may start back-peddling now and try to downplay it in the overall context---one applies negative feedback to keep closed-loop systems stable.

 

[Osrnoob]

I am afraid I have to strongly disagree on this --- the differences are not game changers IMO. I think that's the urban myth which has been overblown.

Agreed too. I think what happens at the table is far more important. Thats what makes tabletop, the players, the brain.

What is your play culture?

 

[squeen]

Agreed too. I think what happens at the table is far more important. Thats what makes tabletop, the players, the brain.

Please don't overstate my position: I think rules do matter and do affect play. And there is a complicated dance of rules & consequences that can be difficult to predict long-term. I'm just saying the minor, mechanical, nit-picky, ones that folks have conflated and eulogized in AD&D (and possibly other editions) do not have that big effect on the game---it remains AD&D no matter which side of the fence you land on them. I apologize in advance if this seems hypocritical, but that is my belief in all the specific 1e/OSRIC examples I am aware of.

What is your play culture?

I think the important thing, for me, is for the DM to stay focused on balance and challenge. During the course of play it's two steps forward one step back. Few if any elements should be solely beneficial, there should be some sort of trade-off that hinges on player's choices---often their own personal weighing of the lesser of two evils. Ignoring that and you are in danger of playing Dungeons & Beavers.

Also: the world needs to be far bigger than the PCs, they never get to be too comfortable in the driver's seat. That means a DM has to work his arse off creating content that sometimes doesn't get used. Keeping the players always lean and hungry (but not dispirited or hopeless) is the DM's most difficult job. It's a fine line.

Lastly, let things get silly. The world is the straight-man, but when the situation (through PC's actions) spiral out-of-control, that's when it's time to start laughing. A good dungeon has all sort of props laying around that are designed to trigger wacky consequences. Heavy-duty OC "rooolllleeee playing" actual prevents this kind of detached enjoyment of PC hi-jinx, IMO.

 

[The Heretic]

I DO want to be pedantic here, but there is no Pit Fiend in that picture. There is an Ice Devil (down), a Bone Devil (40 hp), a pair of Barbed Devils (36 hp, one wounded) and a Horned Devil (27 hp) who I believe you are confusing for a Pit Fiend. VS a let's say 12 th lvl Paladin with what, comfortably 70-80 hp and a -2 AC? My assessment of the situation would definitely be different if there WAS a Pit Fiend in that illustration, but there isn't.

Is that a horned devil? I was wondering about that. I thought horned devils were larger (which made the paltry hp even funnjer).

(goes to grab MM)

Yeah, I'd say that's a horned devil. High intelligence. Can fly. Can cast a triple strength wall of fire 1/day. Why isn't he doing that? Devils are immune to fire.

Someone feebleminded all of these devils so obviously there's a high level magic-user in there somewhere.

 

[The Heretic]

I am not Tolkien expert by far, but I think some of the elves were allowed to leave the Hall of Mandos. Glorfindel comes to mind. He was originally killed fighting the Lord of the Balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin, but then reappears in the Fellowship of the Ring. (Although it's possible Tolkien just re-used the name...dunno for sure.)

The Hall of Mandos is a small part of Valinor. IIRC when an elf first dies they are restricted to this portion of Valinor until a suitable time has passed, and then they can go and mingle with their brethren in the rest of Valinor.

There's still quite a bit of dispute about Glorfindel. Many scholars think it's a different elf, while the movie wiki says that he was sent purposely back as an emissary of a Valar. Tolkien was still tweaking his creations even until his death.

The other interesting thing to remember is that Valinor is part of middle-earth. In fact, up to the fall of Numenor you could enter Valinor by sailing far enough west. The world was originally flat, but after the fall of the Numenor the world was 'bent' (became round) and only certain ships could make the journey at the odd angle to Valinor.

I thought that was an awesome idea and I decided to make my campaign world flat. Of course the Physics majors in my group had to ruin things by asking "how can it be flat if there are time zones", to which I said "Fine! It's convex! Non-euclidian geometry and all that. You still get to have timezones!".

When high level play got too obnoxious (they got up to level 17, which I didn't remember until I ran across some of the old campaign material) we started over. One of the physicists decided to play a druid of Telchur (cold), He had heard that there was a great cold land to the south, which seemed to indicate that the world was round instead of flat, so that became his goal. The campaign ended prematurely when he went to Princeton for grad school. He asked me if world turned out to be flat. I told him "Nah, it is caused by an artifact from the splatbook for adventuring in cold environments and that was going to be what you were going to find."

 

[Commodore]

I'm mildly surprised to hear less Knave approval around here. I've been on a kick with the system for the last little while and it's been a lot of fun, I'm really starting to appreciate the "you are your brain plus your character's gear" philosophy.

Of course what I've been doing more than anything else is using my Five Torches Deep-esque Pathfinder Lite hack. The current West Marches hexcrawl and megadungeon are in PF:Lite and it's near and dear to me.

 

[The1True]

Commodore!

Five Torches Deep-esque

sounds house-ruley. I would be interested to hear more of a rules-light 3.7e

 

[Commodore]

sounds house-ruley. I would be interested to hear more of a rules-light 3.7e

My base rules document is twenty pages, it's actually just very stripped down/cut, nothing really changed. Just rolling 3d6 in order for stats, "NPC" classes of warrior/expert/aristocrat/adept, and giving XP for gold along with cutting magic item shops gives it a very old school progression. I really should publish them, just always a pain to put everything together formatted for publication.

 

[squeen]

I'm mildly surprised to hear less Knave approval around here. I've been on a kick with the system for the last little while and it's been a lot of fun, I'm really starting to appreciate the "you are your brain plus your character's gear" philosophy.

Succinctly put. That is how my pals and I has always played (OD&D/AD&D) since per-historic times.

I've been hearing Knave mentioned more and more. Seems like it's enjoying a popularity surge.

Just curious, which era/edition standardized "magic shops"? Was that 3e?

 

[The1True]

Just curious, which era/edition standardized "magic shops"? Was that 3e?

2e. They were definitely present in Planescape, probably present in Spelljammer and likely present in some of the more cosmopolitan elements of Forgotten Realms (which might drag it all the way back to 1e)

 

[squeen]

I think they would actually make some sense in Planescape --- a baazar at the dimensional crossroads, so to speak.
Elsewhere, probably less so. Thanks.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I think they would actually make some sense in Planescape --- a baazar at the dimensional crossroads, so to speak.

Would you say a Bazaar of the...Bizarre?

The magic shops would have come along with the Mercane, a race of interplanar merchants.

 

[grodog]

I think they would actually make some sense in Planescape --- a baazar at the dimensional crossroads, so to speak.

Would you say a Bazaar of the...Bizarre?
The magic shops would have come along with the Mercane, a race of interplanar merchants.

This is a good chunk of the focus for my drowic, multi-planar Dark Market submission for the this year's Canonfire! postfest. My submission is late, and growing later as I continue to type here, but that's what I'm building out

Allan.

 

[squeen]

This is a good chunk of the focus for my drowic, multi-planar Dark Market submission for the this year's Canonfire! postfest. My submission is late, and growing later as I continue to type here, but that's what I'm building out

Allan.

Allan,

I might even buy that!