Feedback Thread: Maps

[squeen]

Guess I'm in the mood for maps. FWIW, here's a tiny test of an unorthodox way to shade mountains.

To the right is the style I was trying to copy, but the creator used the opposite shading (dark on the top) which got the gears of my mind whirling about light and shadow...hence the weird "dusk-lit" range.

 

[Beoric]

I will admit that I personally don't create a with such a God's Eye View towards the setting. (fraction of empty rooms, fraction of encounters, etc.) What you are doing is considering the player experience which is probably the "good DM" way to do it. What I do, (the bad DM method?) is imagine the space, think about the entities in it or it's original intended purpose, and just kept pulling on that logical thread. It's really nothing more than saying, "This is house. It needs a kitchen, a bedroom, a bathroom, etc.", or similarly the verisimilitude (Gygaxian Naturalism?) that prevents a bizarre fun-house type of dungeon with a red dragon closeted in a room next to a bunch of orcs.

I like to use Moldvay dungeon stocking, and generally don't worry too much about including the necessary mundane elements because the players never seem to notice (if I ever have a player who pays attention I might start to care).

However lately I've been thinking about the potential for hallways and common areas. Like putting only one watering hole on the level, which has become an uneasy neutral zone because an all out war for control of it would be too costly. Or having organized humanoids post guards outside of their rooms, instead of waiting for adventurers to open the door and surprise them. Or placing barricades at the entrance to controlled areas to provide cover for team monster. How do rival groups of humanoids handle it if there it only one safe exit from the dungeon, and the all need to send raiding/foraging parties? I like to think about the tension these sorts of areas create, and the possibility of encountering more than one group at a time.

 

[The1True]

To the right is the style I was trying to copy, but the creator used the opposite shading (dark on the top) which got the gears of my mind whirling about light and shadow...hence the weird "dusk-lit" range.

Sorry, I find the shading on the right more appealing. Not sure about those stretch shadows either; I think you're opening up a stylistic can of worms that you'll regret. If you were to go with it anyway, maybe try a rock solid shadow instead? That's going to turn into a tedious task pretty fast, lol. Maybe a drop shadow for your trees and that's it?...

 

[squeen]

I like to use Moldvay dungeon stocking, and generally don't worry too much about including the necessary mundane elements because the players never seem to notice (if I ever have a player who pays attention I might start to care).

However lately I've been thinking about the potential for hallways and common areas. Like putting only one watering hole on the level, which has become an uneasy neutral zone because an all out war for control of it would be too costly. Or having organized humanoids post guards outside of their rooms, instead of waiting for adventurers to open the door and surprise them. Or placing barricades at the entrance to controlled areas to provide cover for team monster. How do rival groups of humanoids handle it if there it only one safe exit from the dungeon, and the all need to send raiding/foraging parties? I like to think about the tension these sorts of areas create, and the possibility of encountering more than one group at a time.

I've never looked closely at Moldvay dungeon stocking. Is that from the B/X set? What you say here in your second paragraph is excatly what I've always done---I put myself in the mindset of the creature and see how they would do about their day (at the top level). Early on, I ran into a hiccup with this method. It was Lareth in T1. When I started imagining his motives (and what he would likely fill his day with), I learned it's best not to dig too deep mentally into the motives of evil or your game will quickly spiral into adult-themed depravity.

Sorry, I find the shading on the right more appealing. Not sure about those stretch shadows either; I think you're opening up a stylistic can of worms that you'll regret. If you were to go with it anyway, maybe try a rock solid shadow instead? That's going to turn into a tedious task pretty fast, lol. Maybe a drop shadow for your trees and that's it?...

I agree with you. The one of the right is better. This was just a funky little 10-minute experiement based on my sense of how light work. I couldn't initially rationalize why a mountain would be darker at the top---usually the crevices at the base are where the shadows lurk. I reached out to the author over that the Cartographer's Guild, and he said he'd no idea why he shaded it like that. Both of us agree it might because the light-colored base just blends better with the rest of the map. He also mentioned he may have copied Tolkien's map, which trumps any of my reservations.

With the little "dusk-shading" I did on the left, my brain keeps saying "Phantom Tollbooth". I'm not sure why.

 

[The1True]

"Phantom Tollbooth"

loved that book

 

[squeen]

Some more experiments. Toying with the notion of redoing my region maps. The upper-right is shaded based on steepness.

 

[The1True]

Upper right looks nice!

 

[squeen]

Thanks man. I'm going to keep "playing the field" for a bit before I settle down and get hitched.

 

[Beoric]

I've never looked closely at Moldvay dungeon stocking. Is that from the B/X set? What you say here in your second paragraph is excatly what I've always done---I put myself in the mindset of the creature and see how they would do about their day (at the top level). Early on, I ran into a hiccup with this method. It was Lareth in T1. When I started imagining his motives (and what he would likely fill his day with), I learned it's best not to dig too deep mentally into the motives of evil or you game will quickly spiral into adult-themed depravity.

B/X, Basic Rules, p. B52:



I think there may have been an earlier iteration, but I have always heard it referred to as "Moldvay Stocking". The formatting makes it confusing, but basically the first d6 roll determines the challenge of the room (monster, trap, special or empty), and the second determines whether there is treasure, depending on whether the room has a monster, a trap or is empty. So there is a 3/6 chance of treasure if there is a monster, a 2/6 chance of treasure if there is a trap, and a 1/6 chance of treasure if the room is empty (special rooms have no chance of treasure). You end up with a lot fewer "empty" rooms than using the charts in Appendix A: 17% vs. 60%.

As for Lareth, I always figured he was too pretty and vain to stay in the dungeon. I had him raiding with the bandits, and posing as an aristocrat slumming at the Welcome Wench.

 

[squeen]

Map map map-pity map. For tonight...

Original imagined just as an escape tunnel from Cellar to Trench (things have a way of growing )

My self-critique:

• it got too busy
• my shading was rushed and lazy
• my brain is saying Fairy-Tale and/or Shel Silverstein

Oh well. Better than nutin'. As always, feedback welcome (...and easier than reading through a whole PDF!)

 

[squeen]

Also, I've come to realize I hate making interesting (large) treasure piles.

Magic items are no problem---weird expensive curios...I got nothing!

 

[Two orcs]

Also, I've come to realize I hate making interesting (large) treasure piles.

Magic items are no problem---weird expensive curios...I got nothing!

Start with the culture the treasure was constructed in, helps set the mood and helps with creativity. Tasteful or tasteless? Obsessed with 2 colors or some material? Abstract or particular motifs? Jewelry or practical objects? Is the value mostly in the material or the amount of work it took to make it?

 

[The1True]

Map map map-pity map. For tonight...

Original imagined just as an escape tunnel from Cellar to Trench (things have a way of growing )

My self-critique:

• it got too busy
• my shading was rushed and lazy
• my brain is saying Fairy-Tale and/or Shel Silverstein

Oh well. Better than nutin'. As always, feedback welcome (...and easier than reading through a whole PDF!)

Don't think that's too busy at all. I love the roots!
You've definitely got to fool around with your labeling to make it stand out more though (outline/glow). I maybe maaaaybe might have skipped the pencil fill and done the fill digitally so as to avoid the scribbles and smudges.
Did you use blue graph paper? It looks like you managed to filter out some but not all of it.

 

[The1True]

Also, I've come to realize I hate making interesting (large) treasure piles.

Magic items are no problem---weird expensive curios...I got nothing!

Are we talking about generating items for interesting lists or are we talking about adding cool stuff to a drawing here? Either way a good start is to begin collecting a library of reference images every time you wander down the internet rabbit hole.

 

[squeen]

Start with the culture the treasure was constructed in, helps set the mood and helps with creativity. Tasteful or tasteless? Obsessed with 2 colors or some material? Abstract or particular motifs? Jewelry or practical objects? Is the value mostly in the material or the amount of work it took to make it?

This is a really great way to jump-start your brain. I'm going to try it. I have run into a few associated issues, e.g. one man's (culture's) treasure is anothers garbage. So how many gp is it worth? Also, I tend to think that the average serf is on the silver standard and 100gp is a fortune --- so who's got money to buy non-monetary treasure from the party?

Lastly, Is there a good random table of interesting luxury items somewhere?

Don't think that's too busy at all. I love the roots!
You've definitely got to fool around with your labeling to make it stand out more though (outline/glow). I maybe maaaaybe might have skipped the pencil fill and done the fill digitally so as to avoid the scribbles and smudges.
Did you use blue graph paper? It looks like you managed to filter out some but not all of it.

I think it's two things that went wrong. The shading and the line weights.

The former got weird because I've been trying something new --- printing on a heavy (58-lb) photo paper and then inking. I just discovered two weird things about that: (1) the laser printer toner doesn't stick well to the non-shiny side, and (2) the smooth side doesn't shade like normal paper. I had to use an 8B pencil to get anything beyond a mild grey.

The line weights got messed up because the scale was too small for the heavier pen I used.

Live and learn, I guess.

Also, I had the grid on a seprarte layer and only dissovled part of it in the hopes it would save the shading. Another bad call.

Are we talking about generating items for interesting lists or are we talking about adding cool stuff to a drawing here? Either way a good start is to begin collecting a library of reference images every time you wander down the internet rabbit hole.

Holy Tutankhamun Batman! I hadn't even thought about drawing the treasure yet!

That's it! No more treasure for my players.

 

[squeen]

I got grid of the spurious grid, painted with some solids (not overlay-mode), tried to give the text a more contrasting background, and (I think this really was the source of visual distraction) lightened the shading in the upper left---it was pulling my eye away.

Here's a gif of the before/after change

 

[squeen]

OK folks. Now what do I put in the pool to attract the party's attention while something sneaks up on it?

This root-system is a quasi-natural but fantastic ecosystem, so I'm learning towards something either dropped by a traveler or else found in nature.

 

[Maynard]

This is beautiful! The shading you've done has really brought this map to life. I'd really like to learn to draw like this at some point, right now I use photoshop or inkarnate to get my maps together. Inkarnate works in a browser so I can do it in my free time at the office at least.

 

[squeen]

Thank you!
First I've heard of inkarnate. I'll give it a look.

 

[Maynard]

The people over at https://www.reddit.com/r/inkarnate/ have done some stunning work showcasing the system, certainly more detailed stuff than I'm willing to do.