[Kickstarter] The Coming of Winter, but let's talk about something else...

squeen said:
So much of what I see in RPGs right now is consumerism run rampant. Folks get excited about getting excited and throw money at the next hot thing. They just want to buy something. I'm not sure it's rational.
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Ya got me. I definitely buy books for comfort occasionally. It is distinctly irrational. I want something shiny and new with beautiful maps and nice illustrations. I want that feeling I got when I first picked up "I5 Lost Tomb of Martek" (don't judge) at the bookshop when I was a kid.
 
The1True said:
Ya got me. I definitely buy books for comfort occasionally. It is distinctly irrational. I want something shiny and new with beautiful maps and nice illustrations. I want that feeling I got when I first picked up "I5 Lost Tomb of Martek" (don't judge) at the bookshop when I was a kid.
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When I am tried or stressed and just want something to lift me up, t's so tempting to *buy*.

Ultimately, it doesn't really help. These days I'm trying to consume less and less focus of the fun I have creating and playing.

To be honest, back in my halcyon days of youth, we kind of turned our noses up at modules. It was all original "dungeons" , all the time.

It was practical too, because in the late 70's, early 80's you'd run out of modules super quick (like within a month of playing) if you didn't create your own content. Mother Necessity.

One of these day I need to write a small reply to EOTB about that recent podcast, because it struck me hard --- like almost a slap across the face --- how many of those "golden OSR principles" that are now just starting to be codified (e.g. faction play, dynamic restocking, seemingly infinite worlds, player-driven challenge, real politik, domain play, etc.) my high school DM was doing. I mean, seriously. It's uncanny. I think he may have been a genius. He was very into PolSci. Read the New Republic. Preferred Star Trek (original) to Star Wars (in 1977!). Played war games. Went to Mock United Nations camps, etc. But still --- he managed to get the Art of Good DMing pitch-perfect in a total vacuum. Uncanny.
 
EOTB said:
Fantasy Adventure Gaming! We deliberately reject the OSR as a label and want to differentiate from it, not associate with it.
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I think that's smart, i.e. distancing, but the label is generic enough to let all the story-gamey nonsense in (and has an unfortunate acronym). Why not just go back to fantasy war-gaming or something equally distinct? That should put some distance between classic D&D and the drama club.
 
EOTB said:
I'm not going to stop using perfectly good and accurate names because some chud wants to go there
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Fight the power man, and I for one celebrate your choices and your fellow Adventure Gamers' right to marry! :p

seriously though. I think you will find dying on this hill to be not worth it in the end...
 
@EOTB: Sure. It is accurate, but is very broad, so doesn't discriminate from LARP etc.

Still, OSR was somewhat more accurate (the Renaissance part, "old-school" is garbage 90's slang) and it was appropriated by those having nothing to to with classic play. Maybe you just can't win. Still names and language matters.

I will keep racking my brain for a better handle.

If only there was a term for D&D play that occurred before the ridiculous Hickmman perversion into "trad"/tragic style and emphasized (slow & fast burn) gaming content over artistic expression. The English language should accommodate such a mentally clear distinction. I imagine German would have a 50 letter uber-word that nails it.
 
Palindromedary said:
Just backed this kickstarter: all the best, Malrex, and I hope you climb over the top.
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Thanks Palindromedary!!

Seems to be going pretty good so far. We always have a slow start and crawl to the finish line.

I will admit, email list does seem the way to go to get the word out. Noticed quite a bump to the pre-launch page after I did it. It actually suits me better too as I would rather be talking to people who have interest rather than spamming social media.

I'm not sure what to tell someone who is just starting out though as I imagine its hard to start a decent sized email list.
 
Malrex said:
I'm not sure what to tell someone who is just starting out though as I imagine its hard to start a decent sized email list.
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Yeah, if you're starting out, it's probably a matter of spamming your favourite reviewers. There's no bad publicity, right? (Except maybe "The Worst/Do Not Buy")
I guess if you're feeling flush, you could pay to get DTRPG to spotlight your work? I don't know; am I just making that last one up?
 
A little late to the party (sorry, busy being banned), but here are my two-cents as someone who majored in the very field you hate (Advertising). My responses in italics:

Malrex said:
1. Does anyone know a social media marketing person that actually enjoys doing it and is in the D&D knowhow that wouldn't mind talking to me and giving me some tips or possibly for hire?

After the fact, but SEO and social-media buys (ie Facebook ad impressions and Google Adsense) are basically your main social marketing tools if you are looking beyond using influencers. That being said, your biggest tool to leverage are unfortunately the influencers, especially within the niche hobbyist sphere that is 3rd-party adventure module writing.

2. What do you do when you have to advertise but hate social media and just want to be a hermit and write/publish adventures and once in awhile hop on forums and argue about paladins and shit? Any thoughts? Is there any hope?

Well, you can throw money at it (buying online ads), but honestly, the indie RPG industry thrives on connections and recommendations from established individuals who already have their own social media audience, and those are the people you need to have shilling for you in order to gain any kind of traction. If you can't connect with any of them, then you're left to build your own audience in the same way they have, only their audience was not borne of product but rather blog-style advice (they didn't put out the products that made them well-known; they became well-known and then put out products). If you build up a persona as a knowledgeable authority in the world of D&D adventure writing, you'll slowly build a following who will hopefully buy your products.

3. Like, how did Shadowdark do so amazing? I never heard of it until it blew up Kickstarter--so I didnt see the social media or advertising tricks or anything like that to learn from---seriously where was the advertising?. I honestly don't want to be THAT successful...I just don't want to keep stressing on if a kickstarter is going to fund or not so I can pay myself back for most of the art. Breaking even would be great!! And also--why don't these people write a book about how they did it? And if there is a book out there, can someone show me it--and something relatable to our hobby? It would also be cool if a certain reviewer wrote a book on adventure design too *cough* but perhaps that's another day's discussion.

The OSR scene loves to distance themselves from the mainstream D&D crowd, but honestly, it's their biggest market (just based on sheer numbers alone, even if most won't buy OSR products, the percentage of the mainstream audience who would buy your product is likely larger than the already-converted OSR audience in total). Newbies entering the hobby are some of the biggest spenders, easily willing to drop hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars on the game. I don't know exactly what Kelsey or the others did (other than being a mildly-attractive woman), but I imagine they didn't shy away from mainstream audiences, and probably got a few shout-outs from influencers on that side of the fence to bolster their sales (all the GinnyDs and Matt Colevilles of the world, and their ilk).

4. I've tried other reviewers that are mostly on youtube or whatever, like what's his name and that other questing dude, but I send stuff and maybe it ends in the trash, I don't know. Honestly, my main reason was to get another few opinions so I can improve in design rather than a method to get the word out.

In Marketing, there's something called a "USP" or "Unique Selling Point" which every advertising campaign revolves around. Essentially, it is the thing that sets your product apart in a sea of sameness; the reason people are going to buy your adventure and not one of the thousands of other ones. Effective advertising revolves around a solid USP. If you cannot identify one in your own product, it's a big problem; it means people are going to skip your product for similar ones at a better price. In the same vein, anyone you try to impress with your product will be looking for a USP. So ask yourself this: What is your USP, and why should the people you send your product to care about it? Why is it worth their time and effort to plug on your behalf? If you don't have an answer, then that's why you haven't been getting the desired effect in trying to form your partnerships - you haven't been making them go "wow, I gotta tell people about this!", and the only way around that is by either paying them to plug your stuff, or by being personal friends with them so they sing your praises as a favor.

5. This is the second place I've "advertised" (although I did it a little differently at the other place, lol) and I know I have to hit it and feel like a schmuck and go through all the BS fakeness, but I'm seriously open to ideas and I think it would help others. I realize some ideas take time (like 'building a community'....) but is there any hope for myself and other 3rd party small publishers when it comes to advertising for a Kickstarter, especially those of us who hate social media? I feel like all the advice on the KS page doesn't really relate to our hobby much, but maybe I'm wrong and if that's the case, can I get your email so I can send you a weekly newsletter? *rolls eyes*

This place is a tiny audience (probably a dozen active users), and most of us already have dozens (if not hundreds) of adventure modules in our libraries. If anything, we are probably even less likely to purchase since we already have so much. The wider audience is out there. The way to reach them is on the sites they visit, the places where the niche of the OSR touches the mainstream - YouTube, Facebook, Reddit, etc. Tiny niche blogs and forums like these may get you a couple solid sales, but you cannot build bulk unless you reach into literally dozens of similar communities; it's far more efficient to reach a bigger audience, even if most of that audience isn't interested in what you're saying. A small fraction of a huge pool is still bigger than a huge fraction of a small pool. As before, the successful creators have already dipped into the audience before releasing a product - just throwing your piece into the void isn't going to be enough. Also, don't be fake; believe in your product, and sell it like you believe in it - you see its worth, now make us see its worth.
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This place is a tiny audience (probably a dozen active users), and most of us already have dozens (if not hundreds) of adventure modules in our libraries. If anything, we are probably even less likely to purchase since we already have so much. The wider audience is out there.
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Guilty. I decided to (mostly) stop buying products because I already have too many and I only run stuff I write anyways.

In that last 5 years I have only run two purchased adventures: G1 and Bottomless Pit of Zorth. That was a total of two sessions out of more than a hundred, so <2%.
 
I still buy relatively frequently, although it takes a while to get to reading them, and I don't always use them for anything but inspiration.
 
Even if you buy frequently, the sheer bulk of materials being released only grows the potential product base, not shrinks it, so the odds of a retailer getting your money is still low. What's kind of more key to look it is *why* you've bought the products you've bought - if you can find a pattern, it's valuable to know. That many choices blowing onto the market necessitates some kind of internal guidance.

Consumer purchasing tends to reflect propinquity more than anything (we buy what others who share our interests and experiences buy), so I expect we all kind of share some buying habits, albeit perhaps not in volume or impulses.
 
squeen said:
Guilty. I decided to (mostly) stop buying products because I already have too many and I only run stuff I write anyways.

In that last 5 years I have only run two purchased adventures: G1 and Bottomless Pit of Zorth. That was a total of two sessions out of more than a hundred, so <2%.
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I write a response mainly for others starting out on the publishing kickstarter trek--the main purpose of this thread. There are those that do it for income, and those that do it for a hobby/fun. There is the third group that I believe I fit in--where you do it for fun, but also, you want to create a quality product with original art and at LEAST break even and maybe even score a little bit of beer money or an art budget for the next project--a hobby of passion. Most of the time, the time you spend on a project won't be fully fulfilled by monetary means--there has to be a level of enjoyment to make it worth it.

There is 2 paths to that---1. write a kickass adventure and obtain original art through a Kickstarter, or 2. Write an adventure and utilize stock art/AI art. Overall, I feel, despite some desperate moves (spending a bunch of money on original art) resulting in desperate/stressful times (will I get paid back?), I've been successful with that in breaking even and/or gaining a little beer money. Kickstarter is an interesting beast, where some seem to go above and beyond their dreams (Shadowdark) and some barely break even or don't get funded (City of Vermilion). I get baffled by Bryce's reviews where an adventure may 'suck', yet they blow it out of the water with their Kickstarter...What's their secret?...Well, I think DP breaks it down pretty good and gave me some realizations.

First of all, thanks DP for the break down. Seriously--I appreciate your time on that.

Second of all--I will echo what Squeen says in that I admit, that I don't buy very many products anymore. In addition to what DP is saying, I buy from Hawk, Huso, Melan, Rosethorn, Dragon Age, and Chainsaw, and maybe a few others to enjoy, or mostly to learn from, but it's ultra rare that I do so........the main reason, is I don't want to steal ideas but also I want to support authors (I mean, I admit I'm super jealous of Hawk's drawing ability and writing/ideas?--how cool would it be to deliver the full package in your own vision??!!!) does that make sense? Chainsaw wrote his last adventure and I found mine to be super similar in one area--he published first but I was bewildered how some of our ideas were super similar! lol! I even messaged him about it because I felt awkward about it, even though I hadn't published what I had been working on (small part of City of Vermilion) but it certainly had made me pause. And now I have the opportunity to tweak it more--but it's that fear of someone saying 'you copied so and so' when really, that is one of the main reasons why I dont buy adventures anymore--so I DONT subconsciously copy ideas. BUT...I'm in Squeen's and other's camp where I have enough or have the ability to create my own material, so feeling the hype of buying something new is super low to me.

Which brings me confliction. I hang out at the wrong forums. I'm wasting my time trying 'to make/form a community' around our stuff as some of my friends say I need to do (who don't visit these forums). I've enjoyed making comments/remarks on Dragonsfoot and here, or doing/participating in contests, or constantly arguing/nerd rage about different topics/discussion. I did that for fun, not with the intention of 'building a community' or trying to make sales, but being genuine (even being the editor for Dragons Foot magazine 2x to get people's ideas out there). I held a Deity Contest recently, again from pressure to 'build a community'--I received 2 submissions. That's it. I don't feel cut out for this...it's not me, I'm a hermit.

Admittedly, it was fun and honestly, they were super quality submissions and I plan to utilize them in The Marrow Ravine as I have the author's permission--but hearing the whole 'you need to build a community' feels fake to me and it's just not me. So I feel at peace that my Kickstarters will never blow up and more importantly, I will never have to join forums that I don't care about or be fake about products I believe in or ask dumbass questions to try and build up a community--like my shit or not. So far, it breaks even although a few times I wanted to go bigger. But overall, I'm good with it to justify breaking even on a hobby.

EOTB said:
Fantasy Adventure Gaming! We deliberately reject the OSR as a label and want to differentiate from it, not associate with it. But yes, the podcast is all about playing the game as you've mentioned your high school DM was doing :cool:
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The OSR idea has been manipulated and overtaken. I want to join discussions, but don't feel I grasp all that it encompasses these days. I like the enthusiasm, even if it's not how I visualize OSR.....A new 'logo' that sticks would be helpful...
 
Malrex said:
There is the third group that I believe I fit in--where you do it for fun, but also, you want to create a quality product with original art and at LEAST break even and maybe even score a little bit of beer money or an art budget for the next project--a hobby of passion.

There is 2 paths to that---1. write a kickass adventure and obtain original art through a Kickstarter, or 2. Write an adventure and utilize stock art/AI art.

...

The OSR idea has been manipulated and overtaken. I want to join discussions, but don't feel I grasp all that it encompasses these days. I like the enthusiasm, even if it's not how I visualize OSR.....A new 'logo' that sticks would be helpful...
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Sounds to me like you took your hobby and made it into a job, which we all know sucks the joy out of it.

Art is really a sales hook for perusing DM buyers more than a functional element of module design anyway (aside from handouts, only the DM will see it). As for using AI for art - no two people will come to consensus, but I say if you make product for fun and not for profit (ie. your income from what you make is zero, but your expenditure is limited solely to your time/energy), then AI art is ultimately harmless, like using clip art or public domain images (but much cooler looking). I personally argue from a place of "I'm not looking to profit from this work I'm not depriving some artist of work since I'd not intended to pay for any art for this free module to begin with, and if y'all have a problem with that then I don't know what to tell you...", but your mileage may vary.

As for the OSR thing - just talk about gameplay man. Stuff you like, stuff you don't like, stuff that works or doesn't work... "OSR" is just a label, and not even a very good one. Focus on the core of the game, not the extraneous and fickle fluff around it.
 
DangerousPuhson said:
Sounds to me like you took your hobby and made it into a job, which we all know sucks the joy out of it.

Art is really a sales hook for perusing DM buyers more than a functional element of module design anyway (aside from handouts, only the DM will see it). As for using AI for art - no two people will come to consensus, but I say if you make product for fun and not for profit (ie. your income from what you make is zero, but your expenditure is limited solely to your time/energy), then AI art is ultimately harmless, like using clip art or public domain images (but much cooler looking). I personally argue from a place of "I'm not looking to profit from this work I'm not depriving some artist of work since I'd not intended to pay for any art for this free module to begin with, and if y'all have a problem with that then I don't know what to tell you...", but your mileage may vary.

As for the OSR thing - just talk about gameplay man. Stuff you like, stuff you don't like, stuff that works or doesn't work... "OSR" is just a label, and not even a very good one. Focus on the core of the game, not the extraneous and fickle fluff around it.
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Nah, it doesn't feel like a job yet, thankfully, but it can get a little bit too stressful for a hobby during a kickstarter.
I hear what you are saying about art...but it's actually one of my favorite things to do is to work with and see an artist and see my vision get drawn out. I've always liked the fight scene pics.---I guess the enjoyment I get working with an artist is the tradeoff I get for the stress in a Kickstarter.

I get frustrated with AI art--I've used that at the table a few times. Mayhaps I haven't really used a good program for it.
 
Beoric said:
I still buy relatively frequently, although it takes a while to get to reading them, and I don't always use them for anything but inspiration.
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Yeah, I have more stuff than I could ever use, but I love to read good adventures and get inspired by them. I like to support the creators as well, and buying a product feels less committed and more targeted than subscribing to a patreon I guess?
 
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