The price of an adventure?

[Malrex]

I wonder how much of a problem this truly is for customers... I only ever see layout and stock art come up as gripes in reviews, naturally being brought to light by reviewers who are jaded by sifting through so much. But are they that much of an issue to the common "maybe buy three adventures over the course of three years"-kind of customer? And in the same vein, does it matter if they don't like your stock art, considering they've already paid you your money for the product? Is it even worth taking into consideration?

I can see how it's bad for building a consistent brand/reputation if you want to get repeat business, but for the fledgling author who does one or two vanity projects, is this such a cardinal sin as it's made out to be?

Not sure to be honest. I can definitely see why reviewers would be sick of seeing the same pictures, but for customers who only buy once in awhile--probably not so much. I personally think stock art is better than public domain art, but that's just my preference. For someone doing 1-2 projects and that's it, its probably not a big deal.

 

[EOTB]

Reviewers have influence because most people want to buy things many other people buy, and that the herd seems to like. Given that most modules purchased aren't actually played, but are instead a kind of collectible someone can read and use their imagination with, this doubly applies: buying something other people laud allows the buyer to go where other people congregate to talk about their hobby, and participate as a buyer in those conversations.

In a way, this is a hidden value to the purchaser not often acknowledged when talking about selling RPG products, but it's one that will drive some sales. So it's good for people who want to make the most money to be aware of it. This is also why "scene" is hard to completely overlook unless the mousetrap offered is truly so far above the crowded rest that it can not be ignored.

None of that is the "Most Important" - modules that function well are most likely to get that critical mass of crowd buy-in, at least until the author's persona is established. We all know those mods that everyone seems to be talking about; you buy it and can't figure out why. And within a couple years the conversation has completely changed to "yeah it actually kind of sucks". So there is a pedestal effect to be aware of also.

 

[The1True]

I wonder how much of a problem this truly is for customers... I only ever see layout and stock art come up as gripes in reviews, naturally being brought to light by reviewers who are jaded by sifting through so much. But are they that much of an issue to the common "maybe buy three adventures over the course of three years"-kind of customer?

Get some decent artwork. You don't have to hire Keith Parkinson, but if your aim is to put out a professional looking product that demands more than PWYW from me, get some decent artwork.
I get it. If you did it for the love of the hobby and you're charging me a pittance for your work than thanks for at least inserting some generic stock art to break up the wall of text that can make reading some of these things so excruciating. But if your aim is to put out something that looks finished and demands anything over $10 from me, I want artwork that illustrates what you're talking about in the text. It's a visual aid as well as inspiration and motivation for the GM.
Editing is worth it too. I started in to the 'Bone-Hilt Sword Campaign' from Usherwood (portions of which had come highly recommended on this site) last week and the grammar and writing in places was so clunky that I had to give up. (It didn't help that artwork was sparse). Half the time, I think people might not even need a super expensive editor. Just maybe reread your own writing thoroughly, you'll be amazed at the mistakes you've made in the process of pouring it all out on the page. I think people just skim their work when they're revising because they're in a hurry and they feel like they've been over it all before... or at least that's what it feels like when I'm reading some of these indy modules.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Just maybe reread your own writing thoroughly, you'll be amazed at the mistakes you've made in the process of pouring it all out on the page.

*cough* Bryce reviews *cough cough* Oh my, excuse me.

 

[Maynard]

I'm on the tail end of development for some adventures and I'm looking into this kind of stuff. My preference is to put everything digital out for free on my itch.io with a note saying "if you found this helpful donate to your local food distro or mutual aid group, here is my local link: LINK". I'm reading here that this can cause people to avoid actually reading the PDF. I'm not interested in trying to generate money for myself, I'd prefer to divert any money I take in from this to my local mutual aid group if I end up charging anything at all.

Both adventures I'm working on have original artists and editors attached to them. While they're my first works that I'd be happy to see Bryce call "workmanlike" or "journeyman" efforts I don't really fancy the idea of them being discarded without any examination or play.

 

[robertsconley]

What is a good price for an adventure?

I asked myself what I want to make if I sold a hundred copies? Generally the answer is $500. Now this not list price but after OBS takes it cut. So I peg it a roughly $5 per copy. Which on DriveThru means I need to sell the PDF for around $7.99. The print cost is higher depending on format but I make it work so I am clearing around $5 per copy print or PDF.

But there is a catch for me. I have to feel that it is worth $7.99 to the reader. So I generally will make it 64 pages to 96 pages by adding a supplement to the back half of the adventure. It not needed to run the adventure but it is related and it is there to make the product useful beyond it use as an adventure. Basically use my skill with small setting, like Blackmarsh, to make something useful with the adventure one thing you could do within that small setting. Also the two halves are distinctly formatted.

If I was to write only an adventure then I would go for $300 for 100 copies. Which means I can sell the PDF for around $4.99. Again print is higher because of the added print cost. However keep in mind the amount of work as a DiY publisher isn't that much more. And may make the product more useful if it doesn't clutter up the adventure. Which can be done by making the work into two distinct but related halves.

So generally my observation is that people found going through the publishing worthwhile if they gain 100 sales over a year. The point is not the money, although it useful, but more it is a useful barometer of folks approval. Sustained sales over a year means people are found your stuff useful.

So what about free? I give away stuff for free all the time. And even have the PDF for one of my major works, Blackmarsh, free. However all the free stuff is what I consider to be an effective form of advertising. The stuff that I pay or barter for edits, layouts, and art. I will sell. Although I am at the point where my publishing now funds my hobby. The main reason I charge so I can pay for more art, and more editing. The two areas I am weak on. Except for Blackmarsh all the free stuff are first and second draft with basic layout done with Word and self-edited.

Don't sell yourself short. Especially if you are willing to learn both creatively and the logistics of publishing. Figure out a per copy profit that allows you to do the next project a bit better and give you and your significant other a dinner or you that RPG books you wanted for a while. If you can get a 100 sales over a year, it will be worth it.

 

[Malrex]

I'm on the tail end of development for some adventures and I'm looking into this kind of stuff. My preference is to put everything digital out for free on my itch.io with a note saying "if you found this helpful donate to your local food distro or mutual aid group, here is my local link: LINK". I'm reading here that this can cause people to avoid actually reading the PDF. I'm not interested in trying to generate money for myself, I'd prefer to divert any money I take in from this to my local mutual aid group if I end up charging anything at all.

Both adventures I'm working on have original artists and editors attached to them. While they're my first works that I'd be happy to see Bryce call "workmanlike" or "journeyman" efforts I don't really fancy the idea of them being discarded without any examination or play.

I had someone tell me to put my stuff up on itch.io. So I spent a few hours putting all the stuff up. That one person bought one thing.
And that's it. It's below the minimum, so I can't even take the money out....5$, just floating in the ether.
But if you have luck with itch.io then cool! It's quite possible I didn't do something right (although had some views of it..shrug).

Anyways--in my experience, I haven't had much luck with putting up stuff for donations/charity (I had 8 sales once). I also realized there are a few charity bundles I have purchased that I haven't looked at about 80% of the stuff. But this was just my experience, don't let it dissuade you--but I'd be interested to hear a report if you have made it work.

Other than that, I'm in the same boat with @robertsconley and agree with what he is saying. I got some fun projects that I like to bust out--because I enjoy doing it, using some stock art or whatever, and put up for 5$, and got the more detailed works that have the original art/editors and sell them for more.

 

[Maynard]

Thank you for the wisdom Malrex I appreciate it! Do you think the charity bundles are because of the charity aspect or the bundle aspect? Right now I'm considering making a price point and just donating the proceeds myself.

 

[Malrex]

Thank you for the wisdom Malrex I appreciate it! Do you think the charity bundles are because of the charity aspect or the bundle aspect? Right now I'm considering making a price point and just donating the proceeds myself.

Now that I'm thinking about it....it might be more of a 'what the charity is' aspect. For my charity, it was for my community because our town was on fire like 3 times since 2017 and people don't have anything or suffering mentally due to the fires. So that may not of resonated as much for people. But a different type of charity--world hunger, or whatever, may be more of a draw.

I think people enjoy the bundles...they see something they really want, then get a few random things that may be good or bad--the potential to find a hidden gem is kinda fun, and it feels like you are getting a deal.

It FEELS like PWYW with all proceeds going to charity would be awesome--but I just don't think it will work that great, unless maybe the project gets a stunning review from Bryce or something. I wish I had more data or experience for you, but probably the best thing to do is try it yourself. Do one for a charity and do another as a price point and then donate it yourself and see which one does better or if there is a good comparison. And I'd love to hear about it.

Giving to charity feels good....but for me, it was completely over-top awesome to be able to do it because of something I created.

 

[Maynard]

Now that I'm thinking about it....it might be more of a 'what the charity is' aspect. For my charity, it was for my community because our town was on fire like 3 times since 2017 and people don't have anything or suffering mentally due to the fires. So that may not of resonated as much for people. But a different type of charity--world hunger, or whatever, may be more of a draw.

I think people enjoy the bundles...they see something they really want, then get a few random things that may be good or bad--the potential to find a hidden gem is kinda fun, and it feels like you are getting a deal.

It FEELS like PWYW with all proceeds going to charity would be awesome--but I just don't think it will work that great, unless maybe the project gets a stunning review from Bryce or something. I wish I had more data or experience for you, but probably the best thing to do is try it yourself. Do one for a charity and do another as a price point and then donate it yourself and see which one does better or if there is a good comparison. And I'd love to hear about it.

Giving to charity feels good....but for me, it was completely over-top awesome to be able to do it because of something I created.

My charity of choice is the mutual aid group for my city. Giving families in need food and shelter isn't very political (you'd think) and won't turn people off. I don't think the charity part needs to be visible though. It's not part of the sales gimmick I just want to do it.
From my point of view the best outreach is quality that speaks for itself. My first aim is just making something that I can be proud of using the skills I taught myself over the pandemic and I think I'm getting there.

 

[EOTB]

I don't think any charity turns people off. But the sales of the OSR "help for Haiti" bundle a few years back after their earthquake were unusually large - that's more of what I think (?) Malrex is talking about - some charity bundles are dedicated to situations everyone is observing at that time for various reasons, and thus get more support.

 

[Osrnoob]

Courtney C has spoken about this. He says that Itch and others dont work out as more generous than DTRPG after fees and such.

I assumed this was not the case.

One thing he does agree on is that DTRPG support is bad and does not care. Secondly there is a community there that pushes product (this I dont like)

Additionally, it is worth noting that you can not set products differently on various products to compensate for various fees so you make the same $ no matter the medium.

This anti comp practice is BS

 

[robertsconley]

Additionally, it is worth noting that you can not set products differently on various products to compensate for various fees so you make the same $ no matter the medium.

This anti comp practice is BS

What are you referring to? DriveThru? Itch? I know with DriveThru I opted for the non-exclusive so I can sell anywhere at any price I feel like selling at.

 

[Beoric]

I'm curious if anyone knows, for DMs Guild, if you use a map from thei rmap gallery, can you crop them and overlay numbers or grids?

 

[robertsconley]

I'm curious if anyone knows, for DMs Guild, if you use a map from their map gallery, can you crop them and overlay numbers or grids?

You will need to explain to what you intend to do with the result for me to get a more precise answer. But in general all material the DM's Guild are free to use for others who publish on the DM's Guild. Note for those who publish on the DM's Guild. The Guild is intended to be a walled garden and sharing and publication of all material released there must by license remain there. Also be aware there is likely some type of unwritten social etiquette has developed over reuse beyond what required. So find out where folks who create on the DM's Guild hang out and ask questions.

I do know if you intend on sharing or publishing the result of a map modification it can only be done thru the DM's Guild.

This is the overview

Getting Started on Dungeon Masters Guild

Thank you for your interest in Dungeon Masters Guild. DMsGuild is a program that allows you to create content (adventures and locations; monsters; character classes, archetypes, and backgrounds; et...

support.dmsguild.com

These are the specifics

Ownership and License (OGL) Questions

How is Dungeon Masters Guild different from the Open Game License (OGL)? The Open Game License and the Dungeon Masters Guild are two distinct and separate things. Under the DMs Guild program, you ...

support.dmsguild.com

And about using other DM's Guild Authors works.

As more authors contribute to the DMs Guild’s pool of community content, we do not expect to maintain perfect attribution every time an author re-uses elements originally contributed by another author. Such attributions are not strictly required. However, we highly recommend these best practices for all DMs Guild contributors:

• When re-using a larger element that you have taken from another DMs Guild author’s work, include a reference to the original work by linking to the product page on DMsGuild.com within your PDF. For example, if you are using a Rainbow Unicorn creature that you found in another author’s work, you might reference that inside your own work where you provide stats for the Rainbow Unicorn the first time, using an internal citation such as, "(Rainbow Unicorn from Cloud Forest by Jane Doe)."
• On your title’s credit page, make a list of such references.

Again while the above is THE policy, often communities based around open content, or sharing of content (like the Guild) have unwritten social mores beyond that of the actual requirement. Sometime they are reasonable, sometimes they are not, but in any case it best to be prepared and learn them before deciding what you want to do.

My personal take is that I will follow this type of thing to a point as long as it reasonable socially. But after that point, I will do my own thing in my own way while sticking to what actually required.

 

[Beoric]

Oh, I would never use a private creator's content without talking to them. No, I was referring to the maps that WotC makes available from its own collection. In this case, the maps of Sharn in Eberron, which I want to put a numbered hex overlay on top of, and crop a bit.

I have been making a city crawl reference for myself for Sharn, placing all the vaguely referred to locations from assorted WotC products on the map along with some city-crawl aids, and building encounter tables for each district. It is rather more coherent than my usual notes and I was considering sharing it if get it done before I am distracted by something else.

 

[Osrnoob]

DMs Guild is so cracked. People put all this time into stuff that is against them.

Its like a casino but more time sucking and no Mr. Jackpots

 

[Beoric]

DMs Guild is so cracked. People put all this time into stuff that is against them.

Its like a casino but more time sucking and no Mr. Jackpots

They are the only game in town if I want to publish for one of their settings. But yeah, if they make it a lot of work for me to give something away it likely won't happen.

 

[robertsconley]

Oh, I would never use a private creator's content without talking to them. No, I was referring to the maps that WotC makes available from its own collection. In this case, the maps of Sharn in Eberron, which I want to put a numbered hex overlay on top of, and crop a bit.

I have been making a city crawl reference for myself for Sharn, placing all the vaguely referred to locations from assorted WotC products on the map along with some city-crawl aids, and building encounter tables for each district. It is rather more coherent than my usual notes and I was considering sharing it if get it done before I am distracted by something else.

First off it doesn't matter the source of the content the same DM's Guild policies applies. There is no such things as a private creator on the DM's Guild. However Wizards doesn't release everything for the DM's Guild use. But in your case Ebberon is on the approved list. So I would say maybe.

It is a maybe because the map itself is not your own original work. Instead it is an existing work that is modified. All the maps I seen on the DM's Guild were somebody drawing of an original work. So if you drew or hired somebody to draw a map of Sharn, then put a numbered hex overlay over it. Then I feel confident it would pass muster if you shared it on the DM's Guild.

I personally bought a couple of Desert of Desolation maps on the DM's Guild for a Roll20 campaign I was running. This guys drew up sections of the Forgotten Realms in his own style.

Dungeon Masters Guild -

www.dmsguild.com

See this page for dos and don't.

Content and Format Questions

What can I use in my titles on the Dungeon Masters Guild? When you create your own title for the Dungeon Masters Guild, you get access to a hoard of resources. Your work can use any of the 5th Edit...

support.dmsguild.com

Look over the section labeled
Can I convert old D&D content from earlier editions to 5E and publish it on DMs Guild?

But the general idea is that Wizards wants you to make something new with their IP. For example I pretty sure somebody skilled enough redrew the Forgotten Realms in the same style as Darlene's Greyhawk map that would past muster. But taking the old Greybox Maps and modifying them with a grid will probably not pass muster.

But you can ask and Wizards may say yes.

 

[robertsconley]

They are the only game in town if I want to publish for one of their settings. But yeah, if they make it a lot of work for me to give something away it likely won't happen.

Well the fact they lock your creative work into the Guild forever sucks, but on the other hand the only way somebody could use IP like Forgotten Realms, The Third Imperium, etc. would have been by a negotiated license which would be costly and not trivial to get.

My view is that DriveThru's default community content license is a scam for content that original to the creator except for the system. However when there is a setting involved, then I view it as a good deal for people who want to publish something commercially but do it with the time and budget they have for a hobby.

But most of the companies involved don't want existing works (old or new) copied verbatim and lightly changed to put up. Hence why the answer to Beoric question is more complex then it you would think.