The state of Post-OSR content
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Where he ended up was 100% correct. Storyteller & railroading is total BS for a DM, but burnout? --- it never really happened to me.
The essence is creating an interesting environment. That's really it. The players wreck it, and then you adjust/expand before the next session.
The essence is creating an interesting environment. That's really it. The players wreck it, and then you adjust/expand before the next session.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I've burned out on campaigns, but I've never burned out on DMing.
Looking back, I can see how I quit on one or two campaigns back in the day because I was tying myself in knots trying to make the "story" make sense or trying to lure the players back onto a railroad.
More recently, burnout has come from the prepwork involved with playing remotely. If you want to let players write their own story, you need to have plenty of prepped maps (that you will never use) for the VTT. And by the very act of creating/buying/stealing a bunch of maps, you are, in the end, limiting the PC's choices. Maybe it's 6 choices now instead of the 1 choice of the railroad, but that still means you're going to subconsciously stear people towards something you have prepped*. I've tried Theatre of the Mind at the VTT, and it worked okay, but players are pretty spoiled now.
*I've started just going meta with my players. I talk with them between sessions about where they think they might want to go, and when they do zig when I thought for sure they'd zag or zog or even zug, I say "sure, you can do that, but why don't you look into that (next week) after you've finished one of these other numerous threads you've left dangling". If it's just got to be dealt with RIGHT NOW, then everybody now understands that we'll be flying by the seat of our pants on a blank screen in Roll20. And sometimes that's fine, and superfun.
Which goes back to the if/then issue which often gets brought up here, I guess: You're prescribing when you start writing if/thens into your adventure; I see that clearly now. But I can't help but feel that, as long as scenarios are elastic enough to hold together under a variety of non-linear player solutions, providing one or two specific examples covering the most obvious solutions can't be unhelpful, surely?
Looking back, I can see how I quit on one or two campaigns back in the day because I was tying myself in knots trying to make the "story" make sense or trying to lure the players back onto a railroad.
More recently, burnout has come from the prepwork involved with playing remotely. If you want to let players write their own story, you need to have plenty of prepped maps (that you will never use) for the VTT. And by the very act of creating/buying/stealing a bunch of maps, you are, in the end, limiting the PC's choices. Maybe it's 6 choices now instead of the 1 choice of the railroad, but that still means you're going to subconsciously stear people towards something you have prepped*. I've tried Theatre of the Mind at the VTT, and it worked okay, but players are pretty spoiled now.
*I've started just going meta with my players. I talk with them between sessions about where they think they might want to go, and when they do zig when I thought for sure they'd zag or zog or even zug, I say "sure, you can do that, but why don't you look into that (next week) after you've finished one of these other numerous threads you've left dangling". If it's just got to be dealt with RIGHT NOW, then everybody now understands that we'll be flying by the seat of our pants on a blank screen in Roll20. And sometimes that's fine, and superfun.
Which goes back to the if/then issue which often gets brought up here, I guess: You're prescribing when you start writing if/thens into your adventure; I see that clearly now. But I can't help but feel that, as long as scenarios are elastic enough to hold together under a variety of non-linear player solutions, providing one or two specific examples covering the most obvious solutions can't be unhelpful, surely?
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I can totally see where VTT would expanded the level (polish) necessary for prep and also severely limit necessary improvisation when they go off into the wood. Generally speaking, bringing computers into any human recreational activity kind of suck the fun out of it 
P).
I thought about the video some more and think his whiny was a bit too dramatic. That creative process is a joy for a DM. That's why we do it. Likening D&D to other board games, which are casual distractions and not really "hobbies" is completely off-target. Getting to that zone of creative flow is the reward in-and-of-itself. The game-play is a whole other thing. The two are only loosely connected.
With regards to "storytelling", there is a lot of that the DM does --- but it's all stories that have happened in the PAST. You tell them to yourself while creating content, but the story ends at that moment of "now" when the game is played. You really just create an environment waiting for the PCs to explore. A small amount of dynamics also occurs as a chain-reaction to what the players have done (or not done), but that's almost just the current of the river they have chosen to step into.
My players don't seem to enjoy it very much when world events buffet them along to strongly, forcing their hand. Narratives (books) often written about people who get "caught up in War", but it's not clear to me if anyone really enjoys that. Did Frodo?
Twice, I've had armies attack friendly sites the party had an invested interest in saving (forcing them to back-track), but it generally made them grump about being deflected off their chosen course.
P).I thought about the video some more and think his whiny was a bit too dramatic. That creative process is a joy for a DM. That's why we do it. Likening D&D to other board games, which are casual distractions and not really "hobbies" is completely off-target. Getting to that zone of creative flow is the reward in-and-of-itself. The game-play is a whole other thing. The two are only loosely connected.
With regards to "storytelling", there is a lot of that the DM does --- but it's all stories that have happened in the PAST. You tell them to yourself while creating content, but the story ends at that moment of "now" when the game is played. You really just create an environment waiting for the PCs to explore. A small amount of dynamics also occurs as a chain-reaction to what the players have done (or not done), but that's almost just the current of the river they have chosen to step into.
My players don't seem to enjoy it very much when world events buffet them along to strongly, forcing their hand. Narratives (books) often written about people who get "caught up in War", but it's not clear to me if anyone really enjoys that. Did Frodo?
Twice, I've had armies attack friendly sites the party had an invested interest in saving (forcing them to back-track), but it generally made them grump about being deflected off their chosen course.
This is so true and Bryce was on to it early on. Avoid if-then's. It's overwhelming and most often useless until it's a simple A-B branch based on a single trigger. Just prep well and set the stage of "now", while also developing your DMing muscles for creative responses.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
This sums it up for me too (I didnt watch the video, but agree with Squeen's words).
I got burnout as a DM when I was trying to do some sort of story---way back in highschool/college days--same as @The1True stated.
But now adays, I don't get much burnout. I may have some sort of 'railroad' quest (hmm...that seems like the wrong wording...the major hook?) or something in the background happening--the PCs can choose to interact with it or not--it really doesn't matter to me. I give updates if NPCs are doing something major in the environment with the 'main hook'. But ya...just creating an environment with a shitload of hooks where the PCs can create their own story--I never get burnout then. THEY are choosing what is fun or interesting to them, not me...and that is the major thing....because with THEM choosing, its always up in the air for me so I dont hit burnout--Im always just too busy figuring out next session.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I like this. You take this and the stories you hear your players telling and you synthesize a bigger picture, which informs some of the choices you may offer the players in the future. The DM as Historian. Yes, I like that.
The other fun thing is talking to the player's spouses/girlfriends/friends away from the game and hearing the crazy stories your players have been telling them. It's wild getting this second-hand account of what your players thinks is going on in the game!
Yeah, but twice isn't too many. The hero is a making his own destiny and then the world happens. You resent it in a book or a movie as well. In that first 15 minutes, they show the hero doing a bunch of awesome shit and you think "damn! I could watch two and a half hours of just this!" But then the world happens. Beloved characters get imprisoned or horribly maimed or have their favourite things taken away. They just want to spend the rest of eternity being epic badasses, but for that to happen, the world needs to be put to rights. As long as you don't force how they do it (or whether they do it at all), this is just you offering a sweet sweet story seed for your players to grow if they so desire. And if they don't like it; fuck 'em. The war goes on with out them in the background, inconveniencing them increasingly at every turn. Eventually Han Solo is going to have to take a break from the Kessel Run to throw his lot in with someone.
Can you unpack this one a bit?
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Which has me leaning more and more towards Sandboxes. But it can be a lot of content to create if you want it to be meaningful. (And is also extremely dissatisfying to consumers unless you're prepared to detail every feature on your map). I'm working off of short notes on what's in each Hex and I can often wing it til the end of session and then polish something up for the next, but a week isn't much time for a working person, and more often than not you end up dropping in a Dyson map with maybe some well thought out encounters, but it's unlikely that you'll come up with any truly meaningful interactive traps or tricks or items. The players end up feeling empty when they come away from these experiences. It's the TTRPG equivalent of CRPG grinding.
Also, these sandboxes are a BITCH for playtesting, lol. My guys veared off the Irradiated Paradox test to investigate the Tomb City of the Reptile Kings (due to a throwaway reference I added for flavour while the bard was doing research at the Pantheon Library) which has turned into a gloriously fun, year-long mess of totally unpublishable material.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
The players can't gripe if it is clear that this is as a result of choices they made or failures they had along the way.
I have never done it, but I suspect if you are playtesting a sandbox there needs to be an agreement with the players that they try to stay somewhat on track. They need to take the hooks and complete the scenarios to know if the scenarios work.Also, these sandboxes are a BITCH for playtesting, lol. My guys veared off the Irradiated Paradox test to investigate the Tomb City of the Reptile Kings (due to a throwaway reference I added for flavour while the bard was doing research at the Pantheon Library) which has turned into a gloriously fun, year-long mess of totally unpublishable material.
Mind you, it can't be entirely laid out for them either; sidetracks that result from a an interpretation of the available information that is not entirely unreasonable probably need to be identified so you can deal with them.
IME the primary cause of burnout is feeling unappreciated, if the burden of scheduling sessions falls on the DM and players cancel or bow out at the last minute. This isn't really an RPG-specific feeling though, it's something anyone who tries to schedule social events nowadays is subject to.
You can of course refuse to accept the scheduling burden as DM.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
North Americans have always been pretty bad about last minute ghosting, but I think things have gotten way worse since Covid. I've listened to a bunch of radio, podcasts, and comedians and read more than a few articles marking the noticeable rise in this bullshit behaviour recently. Restaurants in particular are getting screwed. I've been to a couple of birthdays now where a buddy reserved a table based on RSVP's and maybe 25% showed up. Not cool. The kneejerk response is to point the finger at the Millenials, because hey, fuck 'em I guess, amirite, but Gen X and Z suck just as much at this. Probably Boomers too, but you can't blame them for missing their bridge game because they dropped dead on the way out the door...
What's alarming is that the usually quite forthright and meticulously punctual Germans started pulling this shit after the pandemic as well, which, I don't even know what this means anymore. It's like we're all dealing with some lowgrade, societal PTSD and anxiety (poorly) and have forgotten how/lost the desire to interract with each other.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: D&D should be a scheduled activity that you have to call to cancel, not call to schedule. Every Tuesday (or whatever) is the game. Work trying to schedule you on Tuesdays? Tell them to go fuck themselves. Your wife wants to go out with the girls? Tough shit lady. You've got the sniffles? Suck it up buttercup. You're kid's big soccer championship game is happening? Better learn early where Daddy's priorities are...okay okay I've gone too far, but seriously. Maybe even collect dues for snacks and materials so people kvetch at the unrecoverable expense. This whole 'who's available this weekend' thing is for setting up a marriage-ruining game of couples-Cranium with wine and cheese on Saturday night.
Or fucking Taboo. Fuck that game, and fuck you Lisa and Kevin. I know you're using secret hand signs or ESP something
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think it sounds far more insightful that it actually is because I mistyped the word "until" instead of "unless". Basically this: I think its fair to say things like "If the battle is going poorly, then the NPC flees [insert direction here]...", or "If the party has a magic-user in it...". These are simple binary tree-decisions based on a broad environmental trigger, and NOT a trigger based on PC actions which are impossible to fully predict. Nor are they an elaborate branching chain reaction.
Based on personal experience with sandboxes, I think the "play testing" happens organically during the campaign. Only, much later, have I thought I might break off a piece for publication. This means that the revised version wasn't play-tested "as published", but that's fine.Beoric said:
mRNA so-called "vaccines" were, in actually, gene therapy --- that is not a controversial statement. Perhaps we vaccinated are now in a permanent cogitative/energy funk now post-genetic tapering. I thought it was just me (because I am getting older), but if it's happening to folks universally...who knows. China, source of the over-hyped virus, chose not to vaccinate. PM me if you want a video-link to an exotic, sci-fi sounding, speculation on this topic that shook me up.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Yeah. To be fair, since it's the known world, I did show them that little strip of wilderness hex map and said "This is the Southwest Tusks". Basically, this is your playground. I made it clear that they could wander out of the sandbox any time they wished, but they were more likely to find meaningful, interrelated content inside the bounds of the box.
They stuck to it until most of the loose ends were tied up and then followed that crazy hook. It's basically delaying my test of the Bulls Run adventures.
Drilling down further; as I keep mentioning, I play with munchkins (and am one myself). We like our powergaming. I went hard with the exploration, investigation and interactivity, and eased back on the monster stats for Irradiated Paradox. Everyone had a good time with it, but bit by bit, I could see certain more munchkinny members of the group itching for more satisfying dust-ups with a little less head-scratching. When they side-trekked to the Tomb City, I took the opportunity to set up a bunch of loosely connected, neighbourhood-sized tactical scenarios with a brutal difficulty curve (occasionally up to 8 lvls above the party average). Sort of an experiment with another aspect of old-school-style play; unbalanced encounters.
It's been fun, but I want to get back to my playtest (and it's starting to show in my DMing), and I think most of the players have sated their bloodlust by now as well.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I dunno, they went out of the stress of the pandemic and into the stress of War in Europe, the return of Interstate Anarchy, etc. Nobody has dealt with this kind of world in 80 years, and most people are ill prepared to deal with it emotionally, but the Germans may have a better collective memory of what it all is likely to mean. I'm certainly having my own fatalistic, "why bother" moments ATM, and its taking a lot of discipline to stay on task and plan past the next few months.
So I wouldn't look any further than the stuff that is clearly actually happening, rather than wild, unsupported speculation.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Yep. If only the Internet could go back to being the greatest gift humanity has ever granted itself instead of this blasted hellscape of hatred and loneliness. Books like "Infomocracy" (fucking READ this book!) and "The Walkaway" were giving me hope for a post-scarcity society, but then The Upload (Season 3 out now on Amazon!) absolutely stomped on that (charmingly).
anyhoo
anyhoo
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
There's tons on how to render your Sandbox meaningful. Anyone seen anything on meaningful Looting? You're supposed to do a ton of it pay gp for XP, I thought that would motivate people to turn over every stone and regard large (like more than one building) abandoned ruins as absolute gold mines. But that's exactly it. The players are looking at looting as a mine that has to be laboriously mined and they don't want to do it.
I tried to spice it up with Encounters and plenty of Features to be discovered. But as I've said, I hate running random encounters because I find them tedious. They hate them because of the resource cost, so they're trying to get where they're going without lingering, and as a result, missing all the fun Features they could be unnearthing with their loot.
My answer was to drop in an Archive and a Map Room that allowed them to dig up some hooks to the more prominent Features, but I'm not going to be able to get away with that conceit all the time.
I tried to spice it up with Encounters and plenty of Features to be discovered. But as I've said, I hate running random encounters because I find them tedious. They hate them because of the resource cost, so they're trying to get where they're going without lingering, and as a result, missing all the fun Features they could be unnearthing with their loot.
My answer was to drop in an Archive and a Map Room that allowed them to dig up some hooks to the more prominent Features, but I'm not going to be able to get away with that conceit all the time.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think Huso recently wrote a post on treasure, but I haven't read it yet. I diverge from the Bryce/Melan/Prince/EOTB school in that I don't usual put a lot of high-value scattered treasure in ubiquitously in places that don't seem logical, but instead make sensible hoards. I *think* that helps my players decide where the loot ought to be...but perhaps not.
I also have been "gamed" as a designer by my son. He purposely looks for weird, deep, undiscovered places because he know I tend to put the most exotic treasure there.
Also, I've said this many times over the years, but my players have their own goals---mostly revolving around acquiring world-prestige and prestige-items (if you know what I mean). That drives them more than just sucking up monetary/level accumulation tokens like a Hoover.
With the Sandbox, you have to get comfortable with the party glossing over and skipping huge sections. That's normal. What's cool is when they decide to return to an area years later---especially when you think they were uninterested or not paying attention, and it ends up they were just scheduling it after other priorities.
I also have been "gamed" as a designer by my son. He purposely looks for weird, deep, undiscovered places because he know I tend to put the most exotic treasure there.
Also, I've said this many times over the years, but my players have their own goals---mostly revolving around acquiring world-prestige and prestige-items (if you know what I mean). That drives them more than just sucking up monetary/level accumulation tokens like a Hoover.
With the Sandbox, you have to get comfortable with the party glossing over and skipping huge sections. That's normal. What's cool is when they decide to return to an area years later---especially when you think they were uninterested or not paying attention, and it ends up they were just scheduling it after other priorities.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Bluesky was a very pleasant haven for a while, hopefully it won't change too much now that it is open to all comers.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
See, if I was in your game I would hire someone to do the mining for me, and hire someone to supervise them. Which gives the opportunity to have a mini domain game, with claim jumpers, bandits, etc. But I expect, being a 3.PF game, there isn't a lot of hiring henchmen or men at arms (stat blocks being what they are) - if so, they probably aren't in the habit of thinking that way.
As an aside, there are certain classes in 4e that are really simple to run, and I make all available henchmen and hirelings belong to those classes. That way their addition doesn't slow down combat.
I can see why random encounters would be a slog in 3.PF. I know in my 4e game I greatly simplify them in comparison to set pieces, so they run pretty quickly. You might try stocking the random encounter tables with creatures that are simple to run and/or relatively easy to defeat - even if they only get a couple of hits in, they are still attritting HP. Or make the odd one really interesting, so they don't feel like a random encounter.