The state of Post-OSR content

[DangerousPuhson]

• 5e was WotC's attempt to wrestle back D&D from a vibrant OSR

You give the OSR too much credit - 5e was WotC putting the hammer down on Paizo, while simultaneously pulling the 3e crowd into buying new books (since 4e didn't take too well). In terms of sales, the OSR is really no threat to mainstream D&D, especially since most people who play OSR also have a robust library of D&D materials too. Pathfinder, on the other hand, WAS eating into the WotC bottom line.

 

[squeen]

Is the consensus then, that 5e was entirely a reaction to a failed 4e and the threat of Pathfinder?
And also that the OSR had no influence on it?

...or is that thinking just another manifestation of DP's pathological hatred of the OSR (kidding! Not.).

Still missing in my little history a raison d'etre for 4e.
Who left and who showed up thinking they needed to redo everything?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Is the consensus then, that 5e was entirely a reaction to a failed 4e and the threat of Pathfinder?

Yes

And also that the OSR had no influence on it?

Minimal, if any. Sales numbers for OSR stuff will likely suffice as evidence.

...or is that thinking just another manifestation of DP's pathological hatred of the OSR (kidding! Not.).

I don't hate OSR stuff - I've bought enough of it. I hate OSR smugness, OSR gatekeeping, and OSR close-mindedness to normal D&D stuff.

Still missing in my little history a raison d'etre for 4e.
Who left and who showed up thinking they needed to redo everything?

Time is the cause of 4e. 4e came out 8 years after 3e. Wizards likely said "Geeze, probably got to release something to bring in money, right? Can't pay all these staffers with 8 years of oversaturated-market splatbook money and 3.5 reprints." Same reason why videogame developers churn out a mediocre title with a recognized franchise name. Same reason why anyone who publishes editions of anything publishes more editions.

They likely re-did everything because they needed it to be different enough from 3/3.5 to justify buying all new core books - people weren't going to shell out $150 for D&D3.75e.

 

[Slick]

Worth reading is this interview from Mike Mearls from the post-4E pre-5E days. In particular this gem:

As far as I know, 4th edition was the first set of rules to look to videogames for inspiration. I wasn’t involved in the initial design meetings for the game, but I believe that MMOs played a role in how the game was shaped. I think there was a feeling that D&D needed to move into the MMO space as quickly as possible and that creating a set of MMO-conversion friendly rules would help hasten that.

 

[Beoric]

Prince, you may be on to something!

• 4e was ????

In addition to 3e ending its life cycle, 4e may have been a response to the surge in popularity of Magic: The Gathering, and MMORPGs.

 

[squeen]

I hate OSR smugness...

I knew you'd say that.

...OSR gatekeeping...

I doubt Gary would agree.

...OSR close-mindedness to normal D&D stuff.

Whatever. I already have all the real D&D I'll ever need.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Whatever. I already have all the real D&D I'll ever need.

Says the guy who doesn't play D&D...

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Minimal, if any. Sales numbers for OSR stuff will likely suffice as evidence.

Just as a minor point for consideration, while your postulation regarding the gross sales output of the OSR versus Pathfinder is likely accurate, WoTC did go through the trouble of roping in a few influential OSR bloggers as 'consultants' so as to be able to market their shit to grognards and boomers as well as incels and drug-pushers.

In addition to 3e ending its life cycle, 4e may have been a response to the surge in popularity of Magic: The Gathering, and MMORPGs.

Probably. I am still baffled they never tried a 4e MgtG setting. Journey into Phyrexia sounds like a larff.

 

[Slick]

I am still baffled they never tried a 4e MgtG setting. Journey into Phyrexia sounds like a larff.

Considering how much trouble developers went to making all of the older rulesets work on a computer (1e for the Gold Box games, 2e for Baldur's Gate, 3e for Neverwinter Nights & Icewind Dale) I'm still surprised we never got a 4E CRPG, the one edition that would actually translate pretty well to a video-game. I guess 4E had already been cemented in popular opinion as a failure by the time the 2012 XCOM reboot revitalized interest in tactics games. And long before games like Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, etc. revitalized CPRGs in general.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Considering how much trouble developers went to making all of the older rulesets work on a computer (1e for the Gold Box games, 2e for Baldur's Gate, 3e for Neverwinter Nights & Icewind Dale) I'm still surprised we never got a 4E CRPG, the one edition that would actually translate pretty well to a video-game. I guess 4E had already been cemented in popular opinion as a failure by the time the 2012 XCOM reboot revitalized interest in tactics games. And long before games like Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, etc. revitalized CPRGs in general.

And to think of the reeking, foul vapors that wafted from the gridmap every time you tried to play 4e. And the requirement that you had to be above 240 pounds to play a wizard? What were they thinking?!?

 

[squeen]

You give the OSR too much credit - 5e was WotC putting the hammer down on Paizo, while simultaneously pulling the 3e crowd into buying new books (since 4e didn't take too well). In terms of sales, the OSR is really no threat to mainstream D&D, especially since most people who play OSR also have a robust library of D&D materials too. Pathfinder, on the other hand, WAS eating into the WotC bottom line.

I found this today too while mining Matt Finch's blog,

Clearly, the strategy is to cut off the trend toward increasingly powerful splinter groups mainly represented by Pathfinder and (gasp) the OSR. Joe Goodman's game is probably a factor as well, even though that game isn't squarely in the retro-rules camp.

@DP: It implies that you were both correct about Pathfinder, but also possibly overly downplaying the role the OSR played in the creation of 5e.

 

[mAcular]

Damn, DP beat me to it. This entire time reading this thread I wanted to volunteer to convert Malrex's adventure. 5e is extremely easy to port stuff over into -- I often just go straight into the OSR and Basic/1e/2e section and pick up adventures from there so I can use them for 5e. You just have to grok the system.

In fact, I believe WOTC put out a PDF that instructs you on how to convert older adventures. I recall that the 1e/2e section almost just said "just use the 5e versions of monsters and you don't even need to change anything" because they're roughly so similar.

Here is said PDF: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_Conversions_1.0.pdf

 

[squeen]

Cool Rosetta Stone. Thanks.

 

[Beoric]

The conversion to and from 4e isn't accurate. What you would do is ... ah, never mind, nobody here is going to use it.

 

[mAcular]

Hey, I'd use it. Tell me!

I think it's pretty rough but it's a good starting point. For me I know 5e well enough that I don't need it and can just do it by feeling.

 

[Beoric]

For 4e levels 10 or below, (5e level) = 1/2 (4e level).

For 4e levels 11-25, (5e level) = (4e level) - 5.

I don't believe there is any 5e equivalent for 4e levels 26-30.

The reason I use this conversion instead of the "official" one is that the availability of utility spells is a better barometer of whether a character is well matched to an adventure, and this method matches the acquisition of utility spells. Combat ability is only relevant in relation to the power level of the monsters, which are not consistent across editions anyway, and which can be addressed by tweaking monster stats if need be. But when you can levitate, or fly, or breathe underwater can really change how a module plays.

 

[squeen]

Bit of a renaissance going on for massive "early editions" releases this year:

• Halls of Arden Vul (1e)
• Melan's Castle Xyntillan (S&W/0e)
• Hoard of Delusion (1e)
• Gene Weigel's Broken Castle (1e)

I've also just got an email from Frog God Games, (who now seems to be reverting to the Necromancer Games name)...they have a new product from the 5th Edition co-creator Mike Mearls : Lost Menagerie. Two things strike me as odd there:

1. Why isn't he publishing for Wizards of the Coast?
2. There's a Swords & Wizardry edition!

Perhaps the death of the OSR was announced prematurely?

 

[EOTB]

There's more on the way

But knowing how eccentric the project orbits of K&KA members are, I never would try to forecast a publish date

EDIT - also "the lost crypt" by Bill Silvey/Dungeon Delver. It was published under S&W but started life as a 1E adventure

 

[squeen]

With regards to Merles at FGG --- has he fallen out with WotC?

If so, and combined with the dearth of non-5e products hitting the market, dare I ask: "Has Fifth edition D&D run it's course?".

Is yet another reboot in the works?

 

[Melan]

Mike Mearls has always had an interest in old-school D&D, so it does not come as a surprise he wants to design adventures for it. WotC has let staff freelance on the sides before.