The state of Post-OSR content

[squeen]

No, not all were bad. And many notions were just plain neat-o. A point can be taken too far---perhaps I'm doing that. Seeing new content is fun. It doesn't all have to be self-created. Does that invalidate everything I've said? You be the judge, because I'm too close to it to see clearly.

And yes, sadly, the anti-paladin certainly did stick---like gum on the bottom of the world's shoe.
Was edgelord Drizzt Do'Urden one? If not, he should have been.

 

[squeen]

Minor confession: I even have an order of NPC vampire anti-paladins "enforcers" in my campaign world's past. The term is so connotative---it doesn't matter what-the-heck appeared in the Dragon...you instantly think "cool man!"...and your brain fills in the rest.

The power of language.

 

[The1True]

Antipaladin. The platonic ideal munchkin class.

 

[The1True]

I'm tempted to call it S3. Big, thoroughly-keyed maps. Cool monsters. Gorgeous illustrations. Great read. Maybe it doesn't run so well at the table, but as a product for consumption, probably peak D&D for me. As I said, though, I'd have to take another look at the book-shelf.

No one bit, so I'll just go on talking to myself. I hit the book shelf and for a while I was seeing a strong showing for 1982ish. Cult of the Reptile God. Tomb of the Lizard King etc. and thinking maybe there's something to this and there's this classic adventure style that I prefere. But then I started stumbling over other old favourites from later D&D 'eras'. I'm starting to think 'Official' D&D modules are a lot like Saturday Night Live; we have these rosy memories of the classic highlights and think everything was better back in the day because we've forgotten the hours of garbage we had to sit through to get to those few immortal gems.

Hell, I've even got a bunch of favourites in the much-loathed Planescape ("The Final Boundary"), Spelljammer ("Under the Dark Fist" (which @PrinceofNothing might enjoy ripping apart one of these days)) and 2.5 S&P ("Die Vecna Die") categories. Even 3e managed to pump out "Forge of Fury". Some of those monster adventures for 5e sure look tempting as well ("Tomb of Annihilation")...

-To be fair, there's no real stinkers in that first wave of modules which probably points to what people have been saying that the early stuff was extensively playtested unlike anything from the mid-80's onward...

 

[Malrex]

I guess I fail to see the difference of it being ok to have new spells and magic items...and new monsters....but not ok for new classes...or for people to have themes for their character (i.e. can only cast fire spells...but somehow thats a cheat code? Seems more of a restriction to me). Maybe Ill talk to our current player who is playing an Alchemist about this ( I chuckled when I saw that).
Finding spellbooks is exciting? Yeah..so is finding new alchemy recipes or special ingredients. Those damn cheat codes...why cant everything just be another Scroll with Magic Missile on it to keep things safe and....fun?

 

[The Heretic]

Antipaladin. The platonic ideal munchkin class.

FTR I believe the anti-paladin and the alchemist were both described in Dragon as being NPC classes.

 

[The Heretic]

Hell, I've even got a bunch of favourites in the much-loathed Planescape ("The Final Boundary"), Spelljammer ("Under the Dark Fist" (which @PrinceofNothing might enjoy ripping apart one of these days)) and 2.5 S&P ("Die Vecna Die") categories. Even 3e managed to pump out "Forge of Fury". Some of those monster adventures for 5e sure look tempting as well ("Tomb of Annihilation")...

-To be fair, there's no real stinkers in that first wave of modules which probably points to what people have been saying that the early stuff was extensively playtested unlike anything from the mid-80's onward...

The later stuff can be interesting to read, but it doesn't seem to be as usable* as the earlier stuff. G1, I3, I6*, L1, X2 these are modules I got a tremendous amount of use out of.

* Convoluted plots and elaborate backstory, plus wall of text, probably doom the newer modules. And most 2nd edition modules were AWFUL.
** I3 and I6. Yes, I *am* a heretic aren't I?

 

[The Heretic]

There's a whole table of poisons in the 1e DMG. Only one is lethal. I don't know B/X well enough to say whether or not if poison types allowances were rescinded.

Weren't those meant for PCs and NPCs though? Monsters on a whole were in a different ballpark. I don't think B/X included poison rules, at least not ones for the PCs to use.

"All poisons must be lethal" just was never a hard-and-fast rule is all that I am saying.

But I think it's a wonderful idea that SOMETIMES IT IS LETHAL.....bwhahahahaha.

The example play in Moldvay B/X has a PC thief failing his poison save and dying. LL specifically points out that yes, poisons are usually save and die and that may seem harsh, but roll with it. But also...

In short, I'm trying to draw a distinction between in-world content (which I truly believe that BtB can be anything) and rules-tinkering intended to change the difficulty level of standard play (for DM and/or players) or slant the style-of-play in a different direction (e.g. DL/R trad "plots").

Isn't making poison less lethal a bit of rules-tinkering?

 

[The Heretic]

Being angry that others are inventing their own classes and saying that it's ruined the game is like being angry that people are using the ocean to surf and waterski because "back in the day" people only swam. It's like, calm down bud, it's a big fucking ocean...

*ahem* I thought you and Squeen mutually blocked each other. You should stop ranting at him, I think he has you blocked.

 

[Malrex]

I guess I fail to see the difference of it being ok to have new spells and magic items...and new monsters....but not ok for new classes...or for people to have themes for their character (i.e. can only cast fire spells...but somehow thats a cheat code? Seems more of a restriction to me). Maybe Ill talk to our current player who is playing an Alchemist about this ( I chuckled when I saw that).
Finding spellbooks is exciting? Yeah..so is finding new alchemy recipes or special ingredients. Those damn cheat codes...why cant everything just be another Scroll with Magic Missile on it to keep things safe and....fun?

Thinking about it, I think I answered my own question.
*points finger at Squeen* I accuse you sir, of attempting to take the creative process away from players. That you as DM, are frightened to let any power seep through your fist. That you only allow yourself to make new spells to use against players, or new monsters, or new magic items...and that if PLAYERS, those nasty folk, attempt in any way to do anything with characters (the only thing they control in the game) that you preach this is wrong and that they should go to hell!!!


Knocks over Squeen's basket of fries.....Ketchup is a cheat code!

 

[DangerousPuhson]

*ahem* I thought you and Squeen mutually blocked each other. You should stop ranting at him, I think he has you blocked.

He's ignoring me; I am not ignoring him. I see people say silly things, I make a comment... and Squeen is oh-so-much a rich source of silly things (statistically, it's a numbers game with him - you wait, and he will provide something in his next one or two book-sized posts).

Knocks over Squeen's basket of fries.....Ketchup is a cheat code!

Fucking candy-condiments, man... ruining the eating experience. Why aren't people happy with saltpeter and mushroom catsup?

 

[squeen]

I guess I fail to see the difference of it being ok to have new spells and magic items...and new monsters....but not ok for new classes...or for people to have themes for their character (i.e. can only cast fire spells...but somehow thats a cheat code? Seems more of a restriction to me). Maybe Ill talk to our current player who is playing an Alchemist about this ( I chuckled when I saw that).
Finding spellbooks is exciting? Yeah..so is finding new alchemy recipes or special ingredients. Those damn cheat codes...why cant everything just be another Scroll with Magic Missile on it to keep things safe and....fun?

I think Beoric is right, I am saying too much simultaneously.

Here's a break down:

(a) I like a minimal list of classes, that's why I don't add them. I also personally don't see the point of over-specialization. To each his own. Here's an example of a class I like, but you all seem to hate: thieves. I can think of no other that holds any appeal---not even one of the 1 million archer classes I've bumped into.​

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(b) some uber-classes seem to me like disguised cheat codes---not all classes. Others (to me) just seem superfluous (see (a)).​

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(c) There is no dissonance in adding new campaign items and playing BtB. (In response to Prince.)​

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(d) the anti-paladin is in a "class" all it's own -- like crack cocaine​

To that list I'll add:

(e) Your friend is playing an Alchemist? --- you dudes must be really bored of D&D...​

Thinking about it, I think I answered my own question.
*points finger at Squeen* I accuse you sir, of attempting to take the creative process away from players. That you as DM, are frightened to let any power seep through your fist. That you only allow yourself to make new spells to use against players, or new monsters, or new magic items...and that if PLAYERS, those nasty folk, attempt in any way to do anything with characters (the only thing they control in the game) that you preach this is wrong and that they should go to hell!!!

Players get to DO everything. They get to be creative in their play. The also get to (and I LOVED doing this as a player) research new spells, make potions, etc. Thieves get to design traps. Fighter design and built castles. There are all sorts of off-line things for a player to do. They could be Heroes! (if just for one day)

You just don't get to play God in the world. It's part of the implicit pact of choosing to be a player instead of the DM, to my mind. Sorry.

The DM does get that creative outlet perk, but he also gets a whole lot of donkey work to do...AND, he doesn't get the joy of discovery, or any glory for the victories---so it balances out.

We can't have it all, all the time. Choose.
You can see what lies behind the curtain, but then do don't get to be surprised by what's there too.

Knocks over Squeen's basket of fries.....Ketchup is a cheat code!

French fries are just a vehicle for getting ketchup into the mouth. Let's keep our perspective here and not shout obscenities.

 

[squeen]

Weren't those meant for PCs and NPCs though? Monsters on a whole were in a different ballpark. I don't think B/X included poison rules, at least not ones for the PCs to use.

The example play in Moldvay B/X has a PC thief failing his poison save and dying. LL specifically points out that yes, poisons are usually save and die and that may seem harsh, but roll with it. But also...

Isn't making poison less lethal a bit of rules-tinkering?

You are not wrong to call me out---it's not what everyone goes around touting as "old school play" --- but I think that's more of a stick to beat the ancient hobby with.

My lazy counter-evidence:

• D1-D3 drow poison is not fatal.
• there is a spell called "neutralize poison"
• lethal poison are rare and expensive (if you want to obtain them) per DMG

I'd say non-lethal poison is within the bounds of world-content. You can disagree. If one declared "all poison is (or is not) non-lethal", that to me is rules.

 

[squeen]

Ironically, my whole family volenteered to try a "metabolic reset" diet my wife found---which includes, among other things, no ketchup.
Three weeks of no (added) sugars or breads (which your body turns quickly into sugar).

We've done something similar each year, and afterwards, everything tastes so much sweeter and you feel great (...and eat Easter candy without guilt). Also helps to throw off those winter-pounds right before spring.

Shows you where my head generally is at with regards to delayed gratification and self-indulgence.

 

[The1True]

Knocks over Squeen's basket of fries.....Ketchup is a cheat code!

Wait! I've got to go pop some corn!

 

[The Heretic]

Was edgelord Drizzt Do'Urden one? If not, he should have been.

No, he was a goody two shoes Dark Elven CG Ranger. OMG get it right!

 

[The Heretic]

Wait! I've got to go pop some corn!

Please don't put ketchup on it. If you insist on ketchup, please go full Canadian and put them on your potato chips instead.

 

[The1True]

French fries are just a vehicle for getting ketchup into the mouth. Let's keep our perspective here and not shout obscenities.

It was all over so fast (throws popcorn out)

 

[The Heretic]

<poisons>
My only evidence:

• D1-D3 drow poison is not fatal.
• there is a spell called "cure poison"
• lethal poison are rare and expensive (if you want to obtain them) per DMG

I'd say non-lethal poison is within the bounds of world-content. You can disagree. If one declared "all poison is (or is not) non-lethal", that to me is rules.

Non-lethal was certainly a thing, but most of the time it seemed to be LETHAL save or die. Beoric has the stats. Also, Neutralize Poison had a specific use pre-resurrection. If a person died by poison and you didn't neutralize the poison first he'd die immediately (again) from the poison when you cast Raise Dead.

 

[The1True]

Please don't put ketchup on it. If you insist on ketchup, please go full Canadian and put them on your potato chips instead.

Dude, I used to hate them but now I can't get enough of All-Dressed. Fuck, I havn't been home in two years. This Covid shit is killing me.